Meth Injection??

[Acuracy]

So since tuning is such a PITA and rather expensive for my car(can't do shit without a new stand-alone or expensive piggy back) i've been toying with the idea of going with a meth kit. I was hoping to be able to run 12psi safely on this, I just wanted to hear from some of you what your thoughts on it are. Pro's/cons, I am really just starting to look into this so i'm practically clueless so any thoughts or experiences would be helpful.

Somone else with a MSM is looking at this kit:
http://www.alcohol-injection.com/water-injection-kits-1/universal-19/universal-stage-1-8.html

[STiDriven]

Good read:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12614948

I'm going with meth myself. Great gain with little investment.

[Acuracy]

Wow, that is a wealth of knowledge, thanks!

[Semi Jew]

meth without a tune is not good.

[dscivicdx]

just throwing the meth kit on there doesnt mean you are going to make any gains by upping the boost. it still needs to be tuned to take advantange of the setup and keep it from blowing.
im personally not big on meth kits.

[03scgt]

I would use snow performance or cooling mist best kits on the market.really James with out a way to tune for the meth it's not gonna help you very much.the idea is to beable to use the same timing on 93 octane as you would beable to on a race gas.it pretty much gives the same effects as using the expensive c16 and others at a pump gas price.it has been shown that meth is corrosive to aluminum and breaks down you engine oil.so if you don't mind changeing the oil every 2k miles and doing other stuff regularly thengo for it.I'd still look into another way to tune for itlike a safc or maybe you could do megasquirt.it's pretty cheap and it works well.

[Acuracy]

Thanks for the input guys! Like I said I really don't know much about it(learning alot from all the reading though).

As for the megasquirt there is only 1 person who has gotten a MGS to work on the mazdaspeeds(after months of working on it), for some reason they just don't mesh up well. They work great for other FI miata's but no one can seem to get it to work well on the MSM's. It looks like my only 2 options for tuning are either a Hydra or Xede and both are fairly expensive new and very hard to find used. For the modest gains they give like 10-20whp I can't justify spending 1500 for an ecu, then cost for tuning and after all that i'd want to go upgraded turbo too and that's another 600+ manifold fab and then i'd be at about 250-260whp. I just can't justify the cost for that, well that and I can't come up with that kind of money right now. Then again I am being a cheap bastard, i've gained 50whp over stock and i've only dropped like $600 total lol. Everyone says they've tried all the options and everyone either has the stock ecu, the hydra or the xede(and the 1 guy with the megesquirt).

[03scgt]

a it a open ecu that be tuned like an evo? I would contact the mazda shop in Tampa I bet they have an option for you

[Acuracy]

I'm not sure what you meant in your first sentence, but it's the same ecu they've had in the miata's since they came out 20 years ago... they say that's part of the problem. I'm told you can't change anything in the ecu.

Do you have a name for the mazda shop so I can look it up? I'm open to options and it's worth a call even if it doesn't get me anywhere.

[03scgt]

if you can't change anything then it's not open.it's just what mustangs evo's srts and other cars have.if you do you could go get a tune from a tuner without a aem or a self tuneable ecu.I believe the shops name is mazdatrix or something close.you could also try pettit.there mainly a rotary shop but it's mazda they might know something.it's the same place Ryan had his motor done and he beats the shit out of it without it breaking so you know there decent

[Acuracy]

Yea, then it's not open... kinda got the shaft with that.

[STiDriven]

Definitely have to tune for meth. You get your gains from upping the boost and lowering the timing and the meth will prevent detonation.

[Only_In_A_Domestic]

check out streetunit.com for the mazda info

[Acuracy]

check out streetunit.com for the mazda info

Thanks

Definitely have to tune for meth. You get your gains from upping the boost and lowering the timing and the meth will prevent detonation.

I can up the boost with my MBC(can't change timing though), that's why I was interested in the meth. I wanted to be able to run 12psi without worrying about detonation and i've been told that will help you not run too lean. I've been told alot though so i'm trying to sort through all the BS lol.

[03scgt]

k the only thing I can think of for you is gonna run the same price as a meth kit but will be safer in the end.it seems you have a smart ecu that has a learning curve.you could get a set of bigger injectors a pump and a regulator.that way you could richen the car up with the fuel pressure rEgulator kinda like a Honda.then you could up the boost to compensate for the fuel.the computer should take care of the timing to a point.

[Acuracy]

I plan to upgrade from my stock 270cc's to 315's(the largest the stock ecu can handle) soon and I felt that I should be safe to move up from 10-11psi after that. I feel like i'll be pushing it too much if I go to 12psi though. I guess i'll have to feel it out after I swap the injectors and see where i'm at then.

[STiDriven]

I plan to upgrade from my stock 270cc's to 315's(the largest the stock ecu can handle)

I'm upgrading to 850's :D

You gotta step your game up.

[Acuracy]

lol, the largest i've seen anyone run on a MSM is 550's. I wish I could go higher on the stock ECU! For the amount of boost they're pushing(15psi) it's a waste or time to go any higher.

[SpeedRacer]

1000cc.... i win =)

[03scgt]

i think im going to win this till phil or forrest come in here.60lbers ftw

[SpeedRacer]

newbie question but how do you compare? whats the math?

[dscivicdx]

http://www.rceng.com/technical.aspx?UserID=1152542&SessionID=YPieyYNfAYtsZRCB5ml9

[03scgt]

newbie question but how do you compare? whats the math?

shit hell if i know.i know theyll support 650 actually alittle more on a v8 so there pretty big

[03scgt]

http://www.rceng.com/technical.aspx?UserID=1152542&SessionID=YPieyYNfAYtsZRCB5ml9


yeah just like i said 725 crank puts them at 56lbers.i have 60's

[SpeedRacer]

http://www.rceng.com/technical.aspx?UserID=1152542&SessionID=YPieyYNfAYtsZRCB5ml9


idk if im right but then that means that 1000cc are 95ilbs?

[dscivicdx]

60lb/hr = 630cc/min

[SpeedRacer]

oh.. i just divided 1000 by 10.5 since they grabbed the ilb and multiplied it by 10.5

thats not right?

[03scgt]

shit i fail

[SpeedRacer]

yay! still winner! lets make this KOTIS

King of the injector size lmfao!

[dscivicdx]

oh.. i just divided 1000 by 10.5 since they grabbed the ilb and multiplied it by 10.5

thats not right?

yeah, your right. its like 95.3, if you want to get technical.

[dscivicdx]

shit i fail

lol... i only have 440's so you beat me.

[03scgt]

yeah, your right. its like 95.3, if you want to get technical.


dear god.i really hope your planning on 500+

[03scgt]

lol... i only have 440's so you beat me.


yay i feel better now lol

[dscivicdx]

dear god.i really hope your planning on 500+

yeah, thats a lot of fuel/power potential, especially with 8 of them. honda guys usually hit mid 500's with those.

[SpeedRacer]

yeah, thats a lot of fuel/power potential, especially with 8 of them. honda guys usually hit mid 500's with those.

lol only 4.. and not rly going past 400.. just not gimping on fuel or getting "close enough" fuel.. cus i might just get a bigger black hole in the future..:yumyum:

[dscivicdx]

lol only 4.. and not rly going past 400.. just not gimping on fuel or getting "close enough" fuel.. cus i might just get a bigger black hole in the future..:yumyum:

you dont have the mustang any more? what do you have now?

[Sloww]

http://fortmyers.craigslist.org/pts/878899468.html

[03scgt]

lol only 4.. and not rly going past 400.. just not gimping on fuel or getting "close enough" fuel.. cus i might just get a bigger black hole in the future..:yumyum:

man that thing getting close?

[03scgt]

http://fortmyers.craigslist.org/pts/878899468.html


if it was a guys email when he posted it i would call and paypal him but im not so sure on that one

[SpeedRacer]

you dont have the mustang any more? what do you have now?

nah man, sold it months ago.. ive got the green colt.. u havent seen it?

[SpeedRacer]

man that thing getting close?

yup.. ive got the big goodies.. just need a few supporting goodies and itll be out hopefully by december

[03scgt]

nice we should be a good run by then.

[STiDriven]

nice we should be a good run by then.

December '09?:)

[SpeedRacer]

yea yea when its out ima pull a julio and race EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!! lol

anyways sorry for thread jack, you mention 12 is pushing it.. but 11 is ok.. 1 pound really make a diference? i mean isnt there wayyyy to many variables to even have a specific volume of air? just worry about a/f ull be set no??

[dscivicdx]

nah man, sold it months ago.. ive got the green colt.. u havent seen it?

nope. i bet its a fucking beast though... lol. those things are nasty with over 250whp.

[SpeedRacer]

nope. i bet its a fucking beast though... lol. those things are nasty with over 250whp.

lol a beast not just yet.. its pretty fun tho even at 140 whp :D

actually itll be out with a 14b instead of the 13g i have now for a few weeks or so when i get dsmlink so i can learn on the small stuff first.. at 20psi i think i put 200 wheel with the 14b.. not to knowledgable with the stock turbo max outputs so dont quote me on that number :-p

then when im comfortable with tuning skillzzzzz the big stuff goes on..

but im pretty sure on the 14b itll suprise quite a few ppl..

[Acuracy]

yea yea when its out ima pull a julio and race EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!! lol

anyways sorry for thread jack, you mention 12 is pushing it.. but 11 is ok.. 1 pound really make a diference? i mean isnt there wayyyy to many variables to even have a specific volume of air? just worry about a/f ull be set no??

I asked the same question on the MSM forum lol. I've gotten mixed responses which is why I brought the question here. I guess I just got skiddish when anthony blew his motor, and I don't have another motor sitting here and would be hard pressed to come up with 3k for a new engine.

[Acuracy]

Something seems wrong there... 20psi to make 200whp?? I'm only at 10psi on a TINY stock turbo and should be right at the 200 mark.

[dscivicdx]

most stock cars have a/f and timing maps for a certain amount of overboost, so it might be that the ecu can read up to 11psi, but doesnt have the necessary values loaded for higher boost.

[03scgt]

first thing get a wideband and see where your at.1psi should make such a big difference in the a/f but some cars it might.i would add as much fuel as you can to be on the safe side because you can always turn down the pressure taking away the fuel

[dscivicdx]

lol a beast not just yet.. its pretty fun tho even at 140 whp :D

actually itll be out with a 14b instead of the 13g i have now for a few weeks or so when i get dsmlink so i can learn on the small stuff first.. at 20psi i think i put 200 wheel with the 14b.. not to knowledgable with the stock turbo max outputs so dont quote me on that number :-p

then when im comfortable with tuning skillzzzzz the big stuff goes on..

but im pretty sure on the 14b itll suprise quite a few ppl..

you have a 4g63 swap, right?

[SpeedRacer]

you have a 4g63 swap, right?

yup

[SpeedRacer]

Something seems wrong there... 20psi to make 200whp?? I'm only at 10psi on a TINY stock turbo and should be right at the 200 mark.

like i said dnt quote that number lol, not too sure about its max output..

i think the CFM is 405.. convert that to possible max output power and i guess thats a better number then 200.. i rather under estimate then over estimate and make myself look like a ricer "GOTS A INTAKE YOZZZZ 45+HP!!" if you know what i mean :tongue:

14b is pretty small too lol

[Acuracy]

most stock cars have a/f and timing maps for a certain amount of overboost, so it might be that the ecu can read up to 11psi, but doesnt have the necessary values loaded for higher boost.

Oh, that's interesting... makes sense.

first thing get a wideband and see where your at.1psi should make such a big difference in the a/f but some cars it might.i would add as much fuel as you can to be on the safe side because you can always turn down the pressure taking away the fuel

I think the first thing i'm going to get is a Flyin Miata O2 mod. It tricks the computer into pushing more fuel while in boost before the ecu goes into open loop mode by preventing it from reading rich. It helps prevent... well bowing your shit up lol. Then i'd get the injectors and then after that i'd get the wideband and push it up to 11 and see where I stand then 12 if I feel comfortable.

[Acuracy]

like i said dnt quote that number lol, not too sure about its max output..

i think the CFM is 405.. convert that to possible max output power and i guess thats a better number then 200.. i rather under estimate then over estimate and make myself look like a ricer "GOTS A INTAKE YOZZZZ 45+HP!!" if you know what i mean :tongue:

14b is pretty small too lol

lol yea I hear ya

[03scgt]

I think the first thing i'm going to get is a Flyin Miata O2 mod. It tricks the computer into pushing more fuel while in boost before the ecu goes into open loop mode by preventing it from reading rich. It helps prevent... well bowing your shit up lol. Then i'd get the injectors and then after that i'd get the wideband and push it up to 11 and see where I stand then 12 if I feel comfortable.


i guess thats a good plan.aslong as your running rich it should be better

[Acuracy]

i guess thats a good plan.aslong as your running rich it should be better

Well people have proven over the last 4 years that 10psi is a safe place to be so i'd like to add the supporting fuel and then see where i'm at and go up accordingly. Seems like the safest way to do it, no?

[SpeedRacer]

Well people have proven over the last 4 years that 10psi is a safe place to be so i'd like to add the supporting fuel and then see where i'm at and go up accordingly. Seems like the safest way to do it, no?

actually theres a lot of variables but idk how much of a difference its going to make with a stock motor and turbo...

what size motor? compression? and how much can the turbo flow..

idk if im right here but if ur compression is below 9.0.0 and you have a turbo that can flow 25ilbs per minutes (thats a total guess) AND enough fuel.. i dont see why even 13 psi would be a problem.. but then again i know nothing about msm's.. lol

[03scgt]

thats the main problem.every car is different but rich is better than lean

[Acuracy]

actually theres a lot of variables but idk how much of a difference its going to make with a stock motor and turbo...

what size motor? compression? and how much can the turbo flow..

idk if im right here but if ur compression is below 9.0.0 and you have a turbo that can flow 25ilbs per minutes (thats a total guess) AND enough fuel.. i dont see why even 13 psi would be a problem.. but then again i know nothing about msm's.. lol

1.8L 9.5 comp ratio, and I have no idea how much the turbo can flow per minute. But I do know that anything above 13psi is above the turbo's efficiency range so people do a compressor wheel upgrade or get a new turbo if they want to do 14psi or higher. Ask anyone who's looked under my hood, the turbo is barely bigger than your fist. I don't know if that helps with your calculation at all lol. The highest i've seen on a stock turbo is 225whp @12psi.

thats the main problem.every car is different but rich is better than lean

No doubt, that's why i'm going to play it on the safe side until I get the wideband to work off of.

[STiDriven]

Oh, that's interesting... makes sense.



I think the first thing i'm going to get is a Flyin Miata O2 mod. It tricks the computer into pushing more fuel while in boost before the ecu goes into open loop mode by preventing it from reading rich. It helps prevent... well bowing your shit up lol. Then i'd get the injectors and then after that i'd get the wideband and push it up to 11 and see where I stand then 12 if I feel comfortable.

Just hope that the sensor doesn't take a shit. Not gonna lie, every mod you have suggested in this thread seems like a nig-rig. I'm just going off of what I know about subaru's but using meth and using a MBC to contoll boost without a tune seems risky. Now you suggest tricking the ECU via the 02 sensor.

You sir are budget minded risk taker. Sometimes that ends up costing you more than doing it the right way. Ask me how I know. ;) Also, when you try to save money and do things half way your $ to HP ratio goes way down.

[Sloww]

nitrous?

[Acuracy]

Just hope that the sensor doesn't take a shit. Not gonna lie, every mod you have suggested in this thread seems like a nig-rig. I'm just going off of what I know about subaru's but using meth and using a MBC to contoll boost without a tune seems risky. Now you suggest tricking the ECU via the 02 sensor.

You sir are budget minded risk taker. Sometimes that ends up costing you more than doing it the right way. Ask me how I know. ;) Also, when you try to save money and do things half way your $ to HP ratio goes way down.

Sounds ghetto rigged I know, but i'd say 80% or more of modded MSM's have the FM O2 mod. It's not just some cheap chip or something that you buy off ebay, it's been proven to help(and it helps clear up a slight hesitation the car has when going into open loop).

Actually at this point I have really taken no risk because I am only at 10psi(8.5 is stock) and after adding higher capacity injectors and a wideband to monitor the a/f I don't think i'll have any problem running 11psi and still being in a nice safe area. As i've said i'm exploring my options but i'm not about to go and do something to completely compromise my reliability for another 10-15whp.