Water/Meth kits opinions

[96ekhatch]

Thinking of buying one but not sure which brand to go with. Anybody used them got opinions on a brand to go with.

[RoadRunner]

Just finished my self made one today. Installed it. It looks kind of retarded, but my car feels fucking awesome.

Get a decent kit with all the warnings like low tank lever, flow or line pressure sensor and not just a pump on light, and even stretch for a progressive controller but it's not absolutely needed. Don't skimp.

It's fucking great.

[Anthony]

devils own or snow performance

if your a real baller the best kit out is the new aquamist hfs-1 or 5 some number bullshit.its about 650$ but its a damn nice kit

[96ekhatch]

well I really wasnt looking into a baller kit because there are mostly poor reviews for what I am using it for. Most that used it say it really didnt help with cooling as much as heatsoak. So I was gonna use a cheap kit temp. until I can afford the 1000 intercooler setup I need... And as much as I beat on my car 1 tank will last a lifetime,lol.

[Acuracy]

devils own or snow performance


+1 for sure. There are a few MSM's out there running devils own and they've made huge gains and their air temps are way down.

[RoadRunner]

well I really wasnt looking into a baller kit because there are mostly poor reviews for what I am using it for. Most that used it say it really didnt help with cooling as much as heatsoak. So I was gonna use a cheap kit temp. until I can afford the 1000 intercooler setup I need... And as much as I beat on my car 1 tank will last a lifetime,lol.

Water injection is not intercooling.

I can't stress this enough. Water injection does not remove heat from the charged air. The effect water injection has is removing heat in the combustion process.

Water expands as it heats up, and is it vaporizes, it expands almost 1600 times it's mass, effectively displacing air if this happens in your intake piping. Displacing air is bad, no matter what you are displacing it with.

If your IC is getting heat soaked, buy a basic $200 injection kit and muont the nozzle on the outside of your IC. Get as small of a nozzle as possible as the smaller nozzles will have smaller droplet size.

The spray onto the outside of the IC will very effectively remove heat from it and lower your charged air temps more than if you were to directly spray it into the motor.

You must understand that water injection does not add power to your motor. Instead, it further prevents detonation and pre ignition. So much so that most vehicles can run more timing and or boost. This is where the power is made.

Water effectively raises the octane of the fuel in the motor by doing this. Methanol injection is needed when, and only when, you start running out of fuel. It does not remove as much heat from the combustion process as it has a lower latent heat, however, it does burn much cooler than gasoline so as it doesn't add any during the "bang" process.

If you want to reduce your charged intake temperatures, spray a fogging nozzle on the outside of your intercooler. This will make a bit more power as the charged air is cooler, therefor more dense, and therefor has more potential power.

You could run a fogger nozzle on the intercooler as well as a small nozzle or two as close to the throttle body as possible. DO NOT run a nozzle before the intercooler. I don't care what "amazing" water injection website you find that tells you it is effective... it isn't and it can cause problems when the water that get pooled up starts to shoot large droplets and surges of water at your motor.

Also, DO NOT run the nozzle before the turbo. Your turbo spins at amazing revolutions. At this spinning rate, any material, even water, will act as though it were sand or rocks and will file the blade of the turbine down, damaging them.

You want to run the nozzle as close to the intake valves as possible. This will allow the water to remove heat where it counts most, the combustion process. It also displaces minimal air in doing so. A direct port injection system, with a nozzle at the end of each plenum runner, is the best setup for ANY injection setup, be it water, methanol, or nitrous for that matter.

This allows for even distribution and in water injection it allows the water to remove the heat where it counts... again, the combustion chamber.

It sounds like you are worried about your IC heat soaking. In that case, run a nozzle on the outside and spray the IC. Or just go to the junkyard and hope you can find an old turbo diesel truck and rip the massive front mount out of it. :D

[96ekhatch]

Sorry not the intercooler heatsoaking. What I have is a supercharger kit. And about 10psi IAT get high and we know what happens at that point. A company actually takes the superchager manifold and cuts it open and installs Laminova cores into it and this end all the heat problems however this mod is 1500 dollars and to me not worth it as I could build a baller turbo kit for that + what I could sell the supercharger for and even with the intercooler mod done your max is like 12psi which after all that money into it your maxed out. So I was looking into water/meth injection but they say it dont really help to much with IAT but more headsoak of manifold. My problems is I dont know if I am gonna be happy with the power level of supercharger even though it is way funner drivability than a turbo. So my plan is put it on boost what I can safely like 7-8 psi and see how it feels if its not what I want off its coming and a turbo setup will return where it should have never left,lol.

[Anthony]

dont run water it wont do shit,run denatured alcohol or meth or a mix of meth and water.
what it does is allow you to run more timing in your tune so you can run more boost on pump gas safely.it basically raises the octane of your gas to somewhere are 110 and keeps detonation away


*edit
the meth kit will help you with the car pulling timing when it gets too hot.it will help with the heatsoak alot but it needs to be placed near the IAT sensor.all its doing is keeping detonation away which is the main problem with heat/boost/and pump gas

[96ekhatch]

ok in other words it doesnt really help me ,lol. I was gonna run a mix of meth and water dont know why I keep just saying water. I am just most liekly eith gonna run 8psi which then I would have no problem with heat or sell it and go turbo. I just wanted to try something different and who has a supercharged honda like nobody at all. But I am reading up so I do shit right and am starting to learn why,lol.

[Anthony]

nah itll help you out and keep alot of heat away.its going to cool the air to a point coming in and keep detonation away and keep timing from being pulled.youll need to get tuned for it though

roadrunner knows whats up

[pdexta]

I'm certainly no expert on this but I think water/meth injection would help you. It does remove heat in the combustion process and also substantially raises octane. Detonation is your enemy in any car and those are the 2 best ways to reduce it.

I'm starting to get really excited about water injection. I've seen stock motor miata guys raising boost ~5psi and advancing timing 10 degrees after adding water injection. Those seem like some ridiculous numbers to me. Hopefully it works as well as they seem to think it does.
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[Anthony]

I'm certainly no expert on this but I think water/meth injection would help you. It does remove heat in the combustion process and also substantially raises octane. Detonation is your enemy in any car and those are the 2 best ways to reduce it.

I'm starting to get really excited about water injection. I've seen stock motor miata guys raising boost ~5psi and advancing timing 10 degrees after adding water injection. Those seem like some ridiculous numbers to me. Hopefully it works as well as they seem to think it does.
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what kind of boost/hp are the stock rods on your motor good till scott? 5 pounds and 10* seems like alot if your on a stock bottom end.hell at your power level that could be over a 100 hp just with the meth kit and you retuning it

[pdexta]

what kind of boost/hp are the stock rods on your motor good till scott? 5 pounds and 10* seems like alot if your on a stock bottom end.hell at your power level that could be over a 100 hp just with the meth kit and you retuning it

Something around 12psi/250whp is where reliability starts to fall off, a lot of guys are daily driving cars in that range. There's a guy on the site now that was running 14psi on a gt2860. After water injection he went to 18-19psi with about 10 degrees more advance then I'm running now. Supposedly he's going for 400whp on the stock motor, we'll see how that works out. It seems to be holding up fine so far, makes me want meth and moar boost. :(
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[Acuracy]

Yea, as we discussed scott the motors just not good for 400hp stock, the rods will blow. And i'm sorry, I was talking about water/meth injection before, I know absolutely nothing about running just water.

[Anthony]

i wasnt directing that comment to anyone in particular but i have seen guys run just water and it actually hurts their power

[pdexta]

i wasnt directing that comment to anyone in particular but i have seen guys run just water and it actually hurts their power

Was that with tuning for it, or just adding the WI and doing nothing else? If you're not tuning for it or at least raising boost, I would expect to lose power from it.
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[Anthony]

Was that with tuning for it, or just adding the WI and doing nothing else? If you're not tuning for it or at least raising boost, I would expect to lose power from it.
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that was with tuning.ill see if i cant find a couple threads and the video im talking about,seem the best mix is either meth and water,100% meth or 100$ denatured alcohol

[pdexta]

Damn, that sucks and is not at all what I wanted to hear. I'm interested to see those threads if you can find them. It seems like the higher octane + cooler combustion would be a can't lose situation.
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[SwapDOHC]

The AEM kit is good, I may know where there is a deal on one too but I'll have to check. As far as water/meth not acting as a cooling agent......BS! The water/meth uses the heat energy to evaporate causing a drastic cooling effect (Cooler/cold intake air temps). Cooler air = denser air, if you want an example of this put some alcohol on you skin and blow on it. The meth's advantage is quicker evaporation (Cooling) and the octane boost. If you are running a set-up that generates a lot of heat, water/meth is your best friend.

An H22 I had on the dyno last week running 18 PSI and water meth inj, had an intake manifold that was COLD after every run and IATs were at or below the ambient temperature.

[Acuracy]

seem the best mix is either meth and water,100% meth or 100$ denatured alcohol

+1

[Anthony]

Damn, that sucks and is not at all what I wanted to hear. I'm interested to see those threads if you can find them. It seems like the higher octane + cooler combustion would be a can't lose situation.
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heres one
http://www.iwsti.com/forums/water-meth-injection-nitrous-intercooler-cooling/161996-100-water-injection.html

ill post more as i find them again

[pdexta]

As far as water/meth not acting as a cooling agent......BS! The water/meth uses the heat energy to evaporate causing a drastic cooling effect (Cooler/cold intake air temps). Cooler air = denser air, if you want an example of this put some alcohol on you skin and blow on it. The meth's advantage is quicker evaporation (Cooling) and the octane boost. If you are running a set-up that generates a lot of heat, water/meth is your best friend.

An H22 I had on the dyno last week running 18 PSI and water meth inj, had an intake manifold that was COLD after every run and IATs were at or below the ambient temperature.

I've seen similar opinions with water/meth as a cooling agent, just didn't want to say anything b/c I'm really quite ignorant on the matter. I've actually heard of guys running some pretty decent boost w/ water injection and no intercooler. IAT's below ambient sounds pretty awesome to me.

heres one
http://www.iwsti.com/forums/water-meth-injection-nitrous-intercooler-cooling/161996-100-water-injection.html

ill post more as i find them again

Thanks man. I'll check it out.
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[SwapDOHC]

More info on water/meth that I've ever seen in one place.

http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/waterinjection.html

[RoadRunner]

As far as water/meth not acting as a cooling agent......BS! The water/meth uses the heat energy to evaporate causing a drastic cooling effect (Cooler/cold intake air temps). Cooler air = denser air, if you want an example of this put some alcohol on you skin and blow on it. The meth's advantage is quicker evaporation (Cooling) and the octane boost. If you are running a set-up that generates a lot of heat, water/meth is your best friend.


In that concept yes it cools the air... but where is the heat going?

When you add cool water (say it's 65 degrees) to a hot air stream, the heat is transferring into the water... but it isn't being removed from the SYSTEM. The heat is still there in the water.

It's great that the water has taken that heat, but to the cost of the displacement of the air. The more heat the water removes from the air, the more it expands. And if the water does "evaporate" while in the intake pipes, it will expand 1600 times its mass. This is not turning the water into air... it's steam... steam is still not combustable.

On top of that, in a boosted system the charged air pressure is somewhere say around 5-12psi. Water's boiling point at this increased pressure has risen. Likely, if the water was being injected into an area of 15inhg vacuum, the boiling point would drop. It's possible to get water to boil even at 32 degrees freezing in a deep enough state of vacuum.

Water expanding in the pipes would displace air, removing power from the system. If the water stays in liquid form (which is 95% likely being in a pressurized atmosphere and probably not hot enough to boil it anyway) and enters the combustion chamber, still a liquid, then in there it can absorb a massive amount of heat from the combustion process. This heat will expand the water and keep the power in the cylinders as it adds it's expansion to the process of expanding AF mixture.

The best possible scenario is the water actually boiling to steam in the combustion process, which while not all of it may do this, it is very possible and very probably, it is expanding incredibly when it does so. This just adds power as it adds it expansion to the down stroke of the pistons.

I refer to water injection as NOT being an inter cooling because you are not effectively REMOVING the heat from the intake pipes, but rather adding a cooler liquid that is able to absorb the heat from the air that is soon to be part of a combustion process.



Think of a glass of water. The water is somewhat warm. You add ice. The ice doesn't remove heat from the cup, rather it absorbs the heat from the water. Sure the water is colder and YES, more refreshing, but that heat energy is still there. The water, while it has lost some of that heat, the ice has absorbed it.


So yes, the water is reducing the air temperature to an extent, but the heat energy still resides. The important thing is that the mean temperature has been reduced.

In the long run, a better inter cooler reduces the charge temp and is more efficient at doing so. The water injection reduces the combustion temperatures.

Water and methanol while used for similar purposes do two completely different things in the combustion process. Methanol is a fuel and allows the motor to run richer, water prevents detonation allowing the motor to run leaner without detonation.

Water is to prevent detonation and will not give the power of intercooling at all. Results from water injection, however, provide the motor to be able to take on MORE boost or timing, resulting in more power. However, again, water is not intercooling and will not add power.

Methanol is added fuel, again with a higher octane rating than gasoline, and is used when you are running out of fuel and as well to slightly reduce the chances of detonation. It also will not add the power of increased intercooling.



I can guarantee that if you dyno a car running 5 psi, then dyno the car running 5 psi with water OR methanol injection, you will see no gains in power.

Todd I firmly believe that the H2 made increased power because of the tuning the Methanol injection allowed for. The injected methanol indeed absorbed heat in the system, however did not remove it. To remove the heat, you have to transfer it to the outside of the pipes. That is what an inter cooler does. It passes through bars attached to fins. The fins absorb the heat and the passing outside air absorbs the fins heat, reducing the charged air temps.

While the charged air temps are being reduced with injection, it is minimal compared to a comparative inter cooler. In other words, the latent heat of Methanol being 473 BTU's while the latent heat of water being 970 BTU's, if you were to add 1400cc's of methanol, the latent heat absorption would be similar to adding roughly 650cc's of water. An inter cooler that could absorb the same amount of heat from the air would be more effective... why? Because you aren't displacing the air with the liquid to do so.

[SwapDOHC]

In that concept yes it cools the air... but where is the heat going?

This is the heart of where we disagree, the heat energy is used to break the molecular bonds from a liquid to a gas. It is no longer in the system in the form of heat in anyway. This evaporation process is highly efficient, even in a higher pressure system, the fact that you have massive amounts of flow, massive amounts of surface area (Of the water/meth), high temperatures and low density hugely overcome the slight pressure increase.


When you add cool water (say it's 65 degrees) to a hot air stream, the heat is transferring into the water... but it isn't being removed from the SYSTEM. The heat is still there in the water.
No



It's great that the water has taken that heat, but to the cost of the displacement of the air. The more heat the water removes from the air, the more it expands. And if the water does "evaporate" while in the intake pipes, it will expand 1600 times its mass. This is not turning the water into air... it's steam... steam is still not combustable.

On top of that, in a boosted system the charged air pressure is somewhere say around 5-12psi. Water's boiling point at this increased pressure has risen. Likely, if the water was being injected into an area of 15inhg vacuum, the boiling point would drop. It's possible to get water to boil even at 32 degrees freezing in a deep enough state of vacuum.

Water expanding in the pipes would displace air, removing power from the system.


Not really, we are not boiling the mixture we are evaporating it. Returning it to hydrogen and oxygen, there will be unburnt hydrogen but the amount is infinitesimal.






If the water stays in liquid form (which is 95% likely being in a pressurized atmosphere and probably not hot enough to boil it anyway) and enters the combustion chamber, still a liquid, then in there it can absorb a massive amount of heat from the combustion process. This heat will expand the water and keep the power in the cylinders as it adds it's expansion to the process of expanding AF mixture.

The best possible scenario is the water actually boiling to steam in the combustion process, which while not all of it may do this, it is very possible and very probably, it is expanding incredibly when it does so. This just adds power as it adds it expansion to the down stroke of the pistons.

I refer to water injection as NOT being an inter cooling because you are not effectively REMOVING the heat from the intake pipes, but rather adding a cooler liquid that is able to absorb the heat from the air that is soon to be part of a combustion process.

This is generally right, it will control the flame front and massively reduce EGTs (The heat energy again has been used to break molecular bonds)



Think of a glass of water. The water is somewhat warm. You add ice. The ice doesn't remove heat from the cup, rather it absorbs the heat from the water. Sure the water is colder and YES, more refreshing, but that heat energy is still there. The water, while it has lost some of that heat, the ice has absorbed it.

So yes, the water is reducing the air temperature to an extent, but the heat energy still resides. The important thing is that the mean temperature has been reduced.
Not even relevant to the point, but if it were about a 1/8 gal glass, it would remove 970.4 BTU's from the room once it had evaporated.


In the long run, a better inter cooler reduces the charge temp and is more efficient at doing so. The water injection reduces the combustion temperatures.
Better intercooler is always, well, better and yes the water/meth reduces the combustion temps.




Water and methanol while used for similar purposes do two completely different things in the combustion process. Methanol is a fuel and allows the motor to run richer, water prevents detonation allowing the motor to run leaner without detonation.

Water is to prevent detonation and will not give the power of intercooling at all. Results from water injection, however, provide the motor to be able to take on MORE boost or timing, resulting in more power. However, again, water is not intercooling and will not add power.

Methanol is added fuel, again with a higher octane rating than gasoline, and is used when you are running out of fuel and as well to slightly reduce the chances of detonation. It also will not add the power of increased intercooling.

You have some of this mixed up too. Meth = you can run leaner, not richer. Evaporation is a huge cooling factor and does effectivly intercool. Cooler air = denser air = more power



I can guarantee that if you dyno a car running 5 psi, then dyno the car running 5 psi with water OR methanol injection, you will see no gains in power.

I'll call you next and you can see for yourself



Todd I firmly believe that the H2 made increased power because of the tuning the Methanol injection allowed for. The injected methanol indeed absorbed heat in the system, however did not remove it. To remove the heat, you have to transfer it to the outside of the pipes. That is what an inter cooler does. It passes through bars attached to fins. The fins absorb the heat and the passing outside air absorbs the fins heat, reducing the charged air temps.

While the charged air temps are being reduced with injection, it is minimal compared to a comparative inter cooler. In other words, the latent heat of Methanol being 473 BTU's while the latent heat of water being 970 BTU's, if you were to add 1400cc's of methanol, the latent heat absorption would be similar to adding roughly 650cc's of water. An inter cooler that could absorb the same amount of heat from the air would be more effective... why? Because you aren't displacing the air with the liquid to do so.

No the heat does not need to be echanded to outside the pipe, it takes massive amounts of energy to change the state of water/meth from a liquid to a gas. And you greatly overestimate the amount of air being displaced by hydrogen.

At the end of the day all I can say is that w/m injection absolutly acts as an intercooler and it has an effect on combustion characteristics. I have seen it 1st hand countless times and willl be happy to show you in person when an opportunity arrises.

PS I hate typing this kind of crap, let's get a beer and argue it then.

[RoadRunner]

...All that stuff you said...

PS I hate typing this kind of crap, let's get a beer and argue it then.


No arguing, mere debate.

I'll gladly be educated. My theory is based on studying and very limited first hand account. Yours appears to be much more fist hand based.


And ditto on your PS.

[SwapDOHC]

No arguing, mere debate.

I'll gladly be educated. My theory is based on studying and very limited first hand account. Yours appears to be much more fist hand based.


I'm open to learning as well, my opinion is based from experience and a 4.0 in physics.

[Pappy]

Not really, we are not boiling the mixture we are evaporating it. Returning it to hydrogen and oxygen, there will be unburnt hydrogen but the amount is infinitesimal.

The above statement is completely false. Evaporation of water does not change it from H2O to hydrogen and oxygen. Evaporation turns LIQUID water into water VAPOR. It is only a phase change of the molecules. So there is no hydrogen or oxygen introduced in the system to be burned when the water evaporates in the combustion chamber, its still water.

I do agree with you about heat leaving the system when the water evaporates. The vaporization of water is an endothermic reaction(which means it takes in energy in the form of heat for it to happen).

So its helps, it takes in heat(safer, reduces chance of knock) and expands in the combustion chamber to provide more push on the cylinder for the power stroke.